I don’t really agree with this posting, as I could probably think of some hymns that the author would love that I think would depress Mary Poppins. But judge for yourself.
First Things pens the following:
Clearly, we have too much time on our hands in the office. We put our heads together and came up with a list of what may be the ten worst hymns of all time. Here are the hymns with video links. Take a look and a listen, and let us know what you think!
They’ve added embeds for music in the article, basically ripping the Dan Shutte/David Haas school of liturgical music.
I started to think of what might be some of my favorite hymns and realized that I have more favorite “mass parts” than hymns in general. But it brings up a stylistic question in my own mind:
What should church music sound like?
I enjoy the Jazz Mass at Ascension Church in NYC–not the coolest jazz–but it’s a low-mellow vibe on Sunday night that sets a nice tone for me. I feel the same way about Taize prayer and candlelight masses. But I also love more vibrant styles such as our parish in Buffalo has a phenomenal choir that’s almost Pentecostal in style. What about yours?
29 comments
Jen says:
July 8, 2010 at 4:32 pm (UTC -5 )
Ack, don’t hate me, but I found myself cheering with that article, although I’m not a huge fan of that blog. Then again these sorts of arguments rarely go well and boil down to personal preferences/aesthetics. I’ve learned that with discussing music and why I don’t like something, most people tend to take it as a value judgment on *their* tastes in music.
for me, personally, I’d rather have silence. I tend to get distracted with bad liturgical music, bad performances, etc.
Jen says:
July 8, 2010 at 4:36 pm (UTC -5 )
I guess agreeing with that article is like agreeing with Kenny G over Prince about whether or not the internet is dead. It’s either a broken clock being right twice a day or a sign of the End Times. Can’t say I don’t feel a bit icky about it after, though.
Elaine says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:08 pm (UTC -5 )
Church music should reflect the church community. If church = people, then there should be as much variety in liturgical music as in humanity itself. Whether you feel comfortable with organ hymns, folksy guitar songs, gospel choirs or mostly silence, the point is to feel at peace and in some way more connected with the liturgy. The Mass I attend has lively, spirit-filled music that lends itself to hand-clapping and charismatic prayer, and I love it. And for the record, I still really like a lot of those “worst songs ever”, as they remind me of the folk mass of my childhood.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:39 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook:
Paul Melley Responds:
“My response to article below. I certainly could say more… thanks for posting Mike.
“I was reading through the comments until I got to the following from Rob G and stopped: “Marty Haugen, Dan Schutte, David Haas and all the rest should have been taken out and shot as soon as they raised their heads.” I cannot even believe this was written! Can he really use those words in same statement as “In our church…” What an absurdly ridiculous and horrifically disconnected world and Church he must live in. Many of these composers, believe it or not, are doing their best at trying to be disciples- its easy to pull down others when we ourselves contribute nothing.
I’m all for honest dialogue, but most of the comments are uninformed, unenlightened, and based in no small measure to hubris. To think that the bleating sheep in this comment section have any standing in critiquing music (let alone theology) when most are not able to be creative on their own is laughable. Before writing in to a nameless blog with no accountability I recommend picking up an instrument and doing better, or working for a publisher, or joining the choir, etc. or use your imagination.
Let’s talk about our differences instead of fracturing the Body of Christ even further, eh? I’m fairly tired of the whining and complaining done in the name of Christ. One simple question: “Who is my neighbor?” and then “Go and do likewise.”
As for the original post, one word: Irresponsible. By what criterion are you basing (and subsequent commenters) your judgement on? Without reasoned, intelligent conversation, you leave the weakest minds to join in the row. Also, look up the definition of hymnody- only one of the ten fits that definition. The others are songs.
And if I may suggest to the author Joe Carter, if “First Things” was named after the principle of first and second things that C.S. Lewis posits, then go and re-evaluate your roots. This kind of list is so clearly a second thing to communion with the Body of Christ that you will lose not only your precious list of songs (good and bad) but also the first.
As a reminder this is your own masthead: “First Things is published by The Institute on Religion and Public Life, an interreligious, nonpartisan research and education institute whose purpose is to advance a religiously informed public philosophy for the ordering of society.”
Next time “things are slow in the office”, try educating yourself instead of flinging mud.”
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:41 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook:
From David Dawson:
Music for the Catholic mass should glorify God and put one in a prayerful state. Dust and Ashes being one of the worst songs ever. “Greed of market, pride of nation”????? So capitalism is bad and having pride in one’s country is also a sin. Socialist song if I ever heard one.
Lol, sorry Mike, this is a good topic for discussion.
…and I love Eagle’s wings (had it played at my mom’s funeral) and here I am Lord. But I also love sacred music as well….big organ, horns, and choirs
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:42 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
from: Rich Andre
When I’m selecting music for a mass, I keep in mind three things:
1. Music must be appropriate in three ways: liturgically (fitting the action for which it is being used), pastorally (fitting the needs of the people assembled), and musically (suiting the musical tastes of the assembly). It can be daunting to meet all three criteria simultaneously: if the assembly is to sing a new song that they do not know with gusto (pastoral / liturgical concern), it usually needs to be simple. However, some people argue that simple music is not musically appropriate for worship.
2. What is appropriate in one liturgical setting is not necessarily appropriate in another. I first encountered a certain song in a campus setting, where I disliked it immensely: the text was simplistic, I felt that certain verses didn’t belong together, and the tune had been beaten to death. 10 years later, I attended a mass where this song made perfect sense to use: the assembly was comprised of families with small children, the lyrics fit the main point of the homily, and the tune was simple for the children to learn.
3. We have hundreds of years of music to choose from in the Christian tradition, and most masses bring together a diversity of people. I always try to pick songs from at least 3 different centuries for each mass, in order to better reflect our shared history and our unity in diversity.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:43 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
From: Elaine Kayser Griffiths
Church music should reflect the church community. If church = people, then there should be as much variety in liturgical music as in humanity itself. Whether you feel comfortable with organ hymns, folksy guitar songs, gospel choirs or mostly silence, the point is to feel at peace and in some way more connected with the liturgy. The Mass I attend has lively, spirit-filled music that lends itself to hand-clapping and charismatic prayer, and I love it. And for the record, I still really like a lot of those “worst songs ever”, as they remind me of the folk mass of my childhood.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:44 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
From: Skip West
Keep it simple, ditch the hymns, and stick to the Propers of the Mass. They can be done in any language, and it’s what we are supposed to do, but most parishes liberal, moderate, conservative, do not.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 5:46 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
From David Dawson:
Excerpt from Spirit of the Liturgy by Pope Benedict, written before he was the pontiff:
Whether it is Bach or Mozart that we hear in church, we have a sense in either case of what Gloria Dei, the glory of God, means. The mystery of infinite beauty is there and enables us to ex perience the presence of God more truly and vividly than in many sermons. But there are already signs of danger to come. Subjective experience and passion are still held in check by the order of the musical universe, reflecting as it does the order of the divine creation itself. But there is already the threat of invasion by the virtuoso mentality, the vanity of technique, which is no longer the servant of the whole but wants to push itself to the fore. During the nineteenth century, the century of self-emancipating subjectivity, this led in many places to the obscuring of the sacred by the operatic. The dangers that had forced the Council of Trent to intervene were back again. In similar fashion, Pope Pius X tried to remove the operatic element from the liturgy and declared Gregorian chant and the great polyphony of the age of the Catholic Reformation (of which Palestrina was the outstanding representative) to be the standard for liturgical music. A clear distinction was made between liturgical music and religious music in general, just as visual art in the liturgy has to conform to different standards from those employed in religious art in general. Art in the liturgy has a very specific responsibility, and precisely as such does it serve as a wellspring of culture, which in the final analysis owes its existence to cult. [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), pp. 148]
Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship. It has its standards, and that standard is the Lo gos. If we want to know whom we are dealing with, the Holy Spirit or the unholy spirit, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who moves us to say, “Jesus is Lord” (~Cor 12:3). The Holy Spirit leads us to the Logos, and he leads us to a music that serves the Logos as a sign of the sursum corda, the lifting up of the human heart. Does it integrate man by drawing him to what is above, or does it cause his disintegration into formless intoxication or mere sensuality? That is the criterion for a music in harmony with logos, a form of that logike latreia (reasonable, logos-worthy worship)… [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), p. 151]
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:02 pm (UTC -5 )
Skip–for the liturgically musical challenged–can you explain what you mean by the Propers at Mass?
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:03 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook:
From Skip West
Ah yes, the Introit, Gradual (instead of the responsorial psalm), Offertory, and Communion…this is in the missalette Mike…they call it the: Entrance antiphon instead of Introit..etc.. Hymns are really only supposed to be sung at Divine Office or LOTH.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:05 pm (UTC -5 )
OK–here’s my take. I think music should reflect the mass part, if you will. I think Rich said this earlier.
So you might have a rousing opening hymn, but then something more contemplative at communion.
I think it’s about “setting the vibe” if you would. We should also do the same with lighting. Lights should be low during the more contemplative moments and add more candles.
Margaret says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:07 pm (UTC -5 )
Sigh. I am only a ‘cultural’ catholic. But I remember quite a few of those hymns from my teen years and I did love singing them. The arguments and bickering over what is the ‘right’ music does nothing to entice me back anywhere near the Mass. But I guess my view is irrelevant anyhow.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:31 pm (UTC -5 )
Margaret—Your viewpoint is the MOST important! Otherwise we’re just talking to ourselves! How might we attract people with musical engagement is very important and you have lots of light to shed on this.
Keep em coming!
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:33 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
from Hortense Noble
Joyful, joyful we adore thee.. gimme that old time religion……
I want music to have me dancing and with a spring in my step when I leave the church to take me through the week ahead. Not music that no one knows, or can sing to.
In some communities the entire worship is in song – joyfully…
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:35 pm (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
From James Hamilton:
The First Things article reflects a real issue within the Church. First, we are a Catholic (read: universal) church with the root of our faith grounded in the Risen Lord as we celebrate the Eucharist. Second, we are a Church constituted of numerous cultural heritages and means of expression in which the celebration of our liturgy must reflect this diveristy, while maintaining the integrity and primacy of the Eucharist. I think we’re losing sight of this second principle.
I do not begrudge anyone disliking music from particular eras or composers. It’s a matter of personal taste. Though I prefer the informal and vibrant community spirit of a Folk Mass, there are times in which I prefer the solemn beauty of a high Mass, or the mysticism of a Gregorian Chant. The universality of our faith and our God permits us to find His love in these various forms of expression. I’ve experienced the powerful rhythms of African choirs, the soul stirring brillance of a chorus sing the Messiah and the vibrant colors of the community Masses of Latin America. Each is a distinct cultural expression that reflects the imagery and rhythms of a people, but is still focused around the Eucharist. The problem is when we assume that one particular expression is superior or more “Catholic” than another. I can agree that some of the folk music is diluted by the Kumbayya syndrome, but I also find some of the High Mass music tending towards a majestic and distant God. But I know the Folk Mass movement looked towards the psalms and the Franciscan appreciation of nature for appreciation which is present in the Gospel.
Catholics have adapted message of Christ to effectively blend with the culture of the people they sought to evangelize. The very concept of Logos was derived from Greek philosophy which was very effective in preach the Gospels to Gentiles of the 1st century. Many of the symbols of the pagans evolved into Christian symbols because they encapsulated the Christian message in a meaningful cultural context. The real issue the tension between the culture serving as an appropriate means to propogate the faith or whether it overwhelms or dilutes the Christian message.
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:36 pm (UTC -5 )
Keep em coming folks. Send this link to everyone you know. Great discussion all!
GodGoogler says:
July 8, 2010 at 6:38 pm (UTC -5 )
The real question here is what keeps us from God/brings us to God? If the music obfuscates that then perhaps it is not doing what we hope it will do. If it raises us up to new heights then it’s probably a good thing.
Question: Does anyone here like NO music at mass?
Mo says:
July 8, 2010 at 8:35 pm (UTC -5 )
Mike asks if anyone likes NO music at mass. My answer is an unqualified SOMETIMES!
I love this discussion as I just had an opportunity to be at a lecture by John Bell (Scottish composer form the Iona Community) and he had a very ecumneical and eclectic group singing all sorts of things together but the link was that every song was deeply and inexorably rooted in Scripture. He talked about the peronalism of some of the more modern songs used in worship and how they can short change the community from the ability to be a universal Church whose experience echoes the timeless experience that is written about in the bible, particularly in the Psalms. Working in campus ministry, we use a lot of so called “Praise and Worship” music (during mass too -gasp!) and as an oldster, I find that type of music shallow and annoying but that is my personal taste. The students find it as meaningful as I found “Here I am Lord” in my late teens. It is typical of the Present to trash the Immediate Past.
Now, back to Mike’s question: I was a conference recently at Notre Dame. All the liturgical music was stunningly excellent….overwhelmingly excellent. One morning, a friend invited me to a morning mass in a residence chapel because it was the 9th anniversary of his ordination.His nephew was in need of pretty drastic prayer and he said mass was going to be for this teen so I got up early, trudged over, yanked on doors until someone let me in and I went into a beautiful cool and dark chapel. It turned out it was me and four priests. Hmmm. Too late to walk out as they already saw me. No singing, no music…just a very simple mass with a very small assembly. I cannot describe how beautiful it was – I have particpated at some pretty spectacular and moving liturgies (my son’s funeral and our wedding mass to name a few). This one just about took the cake for a different reason. It was so quiet and simple and I was in need. I needed to see these priests lovingly and humbly pray together in equality with me, I needed to watch them hug each other at the peace and then do the same with me, I needed to see how these men loved each other and could be vulnerable to each other and to me and I needed to be there, treated as an equal through baptism. Mass with No music -who knew?
Margaret says:
July 9, 2010 at 12:58 am (UTC -5 )
It’s hard for me to add to the discussion really. Personally I have quite eclectic music tastes. When I was just five I ‘joined’ my father in the church choir, so ‘in saecula saeculorum, Amen’ were some of the first words I learned to read. But my attraction for such music is not for the Latin- rather it holds the memory of a shared time with my father that I treasure. As a teen, songs like “Sing to the Mountains’ seemed full of praise and jubilation for a glorious God. I still love that song. When I walked the Camino in 2008, I took those lyrics with me in a little ‘collection’ of songs I had- and when I climbed over various mountain passes, I sang them.
While on the Camino I heard the voices of some nuns and some priests soar to the roof of a couple of Romanesque abbeys. It was like heaven- but those buildings were made for such singing in a way that many modern buildings are not.
Despite the fact that I rarely go to Mass, the last three years I have joined a local parish choir in singing for the carol service then Midnight Mass at Christmas. I felt a little like a fraud being there, but they needed another alto, and I love the chance to sing. I guess one of the reasons I went back the second year was simply the kindness I had encountered from the other altos, from the choir leaders etc.
Jen says:
July 9, 2010 at 8:52 am (UTC -5 )
“Question: Does anyone here like NO music at mass?”
Yep, me. I’d much rather have no music than some of the songs written in the 1970′s.
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:16 am (UTC -5 )
This is so interesting. For myself, I wouldn’t mind no music at a weekday mass–and that’s what happens most times. There was a great nun who taught theatre at Fordham who would attend weekday mass and after communion she would just spontaneously break into song–usually one that most would know. It was beautiful.
I actually think that there are some parts of the mass that could be made more meaningful if sung. In NYC, again at Ascension Parish they sing the creed by using the “answering the questions” style. The response is “I believe, Lord. Help my unbelief.” I think that people really felt like they were giving assent to the creedal statements.
Sometimes people overdo this and start singing everything. I’m not sure if I like it when the Our Father is sung–but sometimes that works.
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:25 am (UTC -5 )
via facebook: from Mike Young
I like hymns in Latin and I like Episcopal hymns, both are beautiful. There is a lot of beautiful music that is prohibited in Catholic Churches because it is not religious: Mendelssohn’s wedding march is beautiful but not allowed.
I DETEST one person with a guitar singing, feels like open mike night at the local coffee house.
On a hot summer night, a short mass with one hymn is nice, no Homily.
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:26 am (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
from Jack Liu
Renaissance polyphany! I also love Russian and Byzantine chants!
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:26 am (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
from Connie Lane Neuman
Gospel!
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:27 am (UTC -5 )
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From David Dawson
@Mike young: agree. One guy with a guitar feels like I am at a campfire roasting marshmallows. And from my experience they usually don’t sing that well.
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:27 am (UTC -5 )
Via Facebook
from John D. Giorgis @Mike Young – it is important to remember, however, that the liturgical role of the music minister is to help ensure the full and active participation of the faithfull in the Mass. There is a lot of Latin music that I *love*, but I, like most Catholics around the world, don’t speak the language – so fully and actively participating in Latin hymns is somewhat difficult. On the other hand, a cantor with a guitar can be well-suited for leading the congregation in music. An advantage of the guitar is that it is flexible, easily transportable, and when played – it allows the player to maintain eye contact in leading the congregation.
GodGoogler says:
July 9, 2010 at 10:28 am (UTC -5 )
I kind of like a “call and response” style at times but it needs to be done well. @mike young: NO HOMILY? You should find a place with good preaching
Fred Wagner says:
August 18, 2010 at 4:13 am (UTC -5 )
I LIKE all of the ’10 worst songs’ – and I grew up on Missa De Angelis, singing a chant high Mass with my grade school 5 days a week from 2nd through 7th grade!
The song I like the least is ‘Holy God We Praise Thy Name’ – it was the ‘closer’ EVERY Sunday when I was a kid, I learned to dread it.
One I really miss was the ‘rock’ Our Father by Sister Janet Meade from the 1970′s. My daughter played the melody on flute, her teacher played guitar, and I did the cool bass part on Bass Clarinet. Another song, totally gave me the chills, was a setting of Psalm 89 by some monks from New England – again, from the 70′s in the early days of the Charismatic movement. Just my opinions…. but you can ‘Lift Me Up on Eagles Wings’ anytime! At my current parish, music at the principal Mass this summer has been led on Piano, with Cello and Guitar. Truly inspiring!